Promoting Women into Leadership in Organizations and Society

Women succeed in the workplace when they understand the rules of the game and learn how to play the organizational game and win. Einat and Ilana the founder of Moveup helps raise the awareness of organizations, employees, and managers to the obstacles unique to women. They demonstrate how to: beat these obstacles, enable women to maximize their potential in the workplace leveling the playing field by helping companies that are empowering and promoting women into leadership positions.

Einat and Ilana offer organizations a modular program that facilitates the promotion of women within organizations using three primary strategies: lateral, vertical and individual. for more information on their different programs that help promote women into positions of leadership please visit their website. MoveUp.Today (Available in English and Hebrew)

Transcript of the Episode “Promoting Women into Leadership

im Kubiak 0:03
Thanks for listening to bow ties in business. I’m your host Tim Kubiak. As always, you can find us on our socials at bow ties in business on Facebook and Instagram and bow ties and bi z on Twitter. Me you can find at Tim Kubiak on Twitter and just about everywhere else. Today’s topic is about the importance of promoting women into leadership positions of influence. studies showed that business firms have integrated more women into their senior executives and boards have achieved significantly better business results than those that have not. In Israel in 2019. Women are still a minority in senior management positions. And we’re going to talk about that with a couple of ladies that have created their own business. This is their specialty. And so just a couple of quick background so if you net with us, she’s an organizational consultant and expert in the process of organizational change, streamlining, and with the unique consulting system tailored to female managers. She has over 15 years experience as manager of organizational development educator consultant to organizations managers, including on the most seniors level, she holds a master’s degree in organizational consulting from Hebrew University of Jerusalem, where the Yana with us she’s a diplomat, spokesperson, educator, an expert in gender communications and PR. She is served as Israel’s cultural attache in Moscow, the Vice spokesman of Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and the director of ministries Cadet Corps, she holds a master’s degree in Political Science and communication and I’m gonna let you say your University’s name because I will get it wrong.

Ilana 1:34
Bar Ilan University.

Tim Kubiak 1:36
Thank you. And ladies, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for making the time to be here. It’s really exciting to have you on.

Einat 1:42
Well, it’s a great pleasure for us.

Ilana 1:46
Thank you,

Tim Kubiak 1:47
a lot of our audience, young women, people starting businesses, things like that. And that’s something that YouTube have obviously chosen to do. You have great academic backgrounds, what led you to start your own business?

Einat 2:00
Um, thank you, team. Um, to understand where it all started, I will go back to the beginning. A while Well, my name is Nick napkin l as you said, and I’m a management consultant and I grew up in the mid 70s, early 80s was the notion that the feminist revolution is over one, women can do anything they desire, and the sky’s the limit. In my house, we often hear the song, maybe you know it, anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better than you. And this is what I believed in. My mom was a curvy woman. She raised three opinionated girls. And my dad was also a feminist, he didn’t have a choice, he was a minority. So this is how I entered my adult life. And I graduated with an MA in management consultant and I started consulted fears in high tech, low tech and governmental organization, working with employees and manager will all levels of the organization. So imagine my surprise team that I discovered after a period of time when I look back at the woman and men, I advised over the year, I noticed that the men I consulted, reached higher levels and reach them faster than the women. They had the same potential, the same starting point, but somehow the men left the women far behind in the race. So that was a meme a moment for me. And they look back at what I’ve learned in the university and for my experience as a consultant and I discovered something interesting. I realized that my colleagues and I were influenced by the conception in which the model of the manager is a man. And we’ve been teaching men and women how to become a better male manager. So although the tools and insight also useful for women, women have additional challenges and obstacles which are unique to them. That’s why I developed a consultant method for women which I address those issues and shortly after began to see results over the years I discuss those these issues with my friend Lana. And we realize we have reached similar conclusions even though we come from a very different fields of expertise. And the outcomes of these conversation is our agenda and mission in move up, which is to help promote women into higher levels and more influence in different arenas. Lana will share where she came from, and how we started this business together.

Ilana 4:50
So yeah, the same as a met I never thought that this is what I would do as a living because I want it to be a diplomat. And that’s what I did. But that’s when I also realized that what I thought was not true, I thought that I like a mat that the feminist revolution is over. And now we can just enjoy it. And so I expected to see in the workplace the same amount of men and women in different positions. And the first week there, that’s when I started to realize that this is not what I’m going to see. Because in the cadet courses, which is the training course, in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, we were also almost the same amount of men and women. But when we had people come and train us, which were senior diplomats, I started to notice that one after another, they were mostly men. And they were about the generation of my parents. And since I thought that this was resolved in a generation of my grandparents, because maybe it’s because my grandparents came from the Soviet Union. And actually, they’re both my grandmother’s were physicians, one was a psychiatrist, and another was doctor. And so I thought that, you know, they could do anything they want. So naturally, the next generation, my parents, generation, men, and women could do anything they want, and more so my generation, and then they see these people who are ambassadors, and who are people who are very senior in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and they’re mostly men. And the women, the numbers were very small, we have 100 embassies around the world, we only had 10 female ambassadors. So I decided to start to look into this and see if I can find the reasons why if we are in the same in starting levels, entry levels, how come it changes when I look at the senior levels. And so I opened a secret laboratory that nobody knew about accepting that. And I started searching and looking at the different diplomats while doing my job. I was like you said, I was a coach in Moscow is deputy spokesperson. I was also the cadet director. But I also had this laboratory that looked into the different ways men and women conduct themselves at work, and does this influence how they move up their organizational ladder. And I did see these things, and I shared them with a knot. And after we saw more and more patterns, we decided to research them as well and see what has been written about these issues around the world, not just in Israel. And then we realized we have a lot of information, but also a lot of tools that want to pass on. And that’s how we started giving our lectures and also consultants, and through a move up. And that’s how we started.

Tim Kubiak 7:29
In just as background. How long have you been in business?

Ilana 7:33
So depends, like if we start from the moment we if we started working on the workshops, then it will be six years ago when we started like building this man. Yeah.

Tim Kubiak 7:45
I mean, so in, I don’t know, in your part of the world, in Israel, how long, but if your business survives five years here, you’re pretty good for a while, right? It’s the first five years in America that kills businesses. So good to know. Congratulations for making it past that mark.

Einat 8:01
But it’s also trainees Well, I don’t know if in the corona time, but it’s also chewing as well.

Tim Kubiak 8:08
Yeah, so I know, I didn’t put that in the prep questions. How has that changed? How you deliver your content and who you work with? Or has it?

Einat 8:16
Wow, great question. Yeah. Well,

Ilana 8:19
the beginning was a struggle, because, I mean, actually, it was more than a struggle, it was a crisis. Because when did COVID-19, at least in Israel, we started feeling it in March, that’s when we’re told not to go to the workplace anymore. And March is when we have International Women’s Day around the world. And that means that a lot of organizations try to look for content that has to do with gender diversity. And a lot of companies had lectures that they ordered us to come and give them. And all of a sudden, they were not allowed to go to the workplace. So phone call after email after phone call, we have cancellations for March. And a lot of them said, you know, once we get back to work, then you will still have this day and someone said, we don’t know. And so March went by and also April, and we sat and actually strategize what we’re going to do. But basically, most organizations were just on hold. And we weren’t sure if they’re ever gonna go back to this issue. Also, we had, we were worried that maybe they’ll think that this is not urgent enough, now that we have COVID-19, we’re in survival mode. So the whole issue of gender is something that we’ll deal with once we’re back into our routine. So these were two concerns. And we were really happy to find out that a lot of these organizations, once they understood that they’re going to stay at home for at least a year, then they start to adapt. And one of their adaptions was saying yes, we still think gender diversity is important, maybe even more so some of them said it’s even more important. And second of all, let’s try it online. Now. Not that I really Very good at adapting and having different methods of how to do workshops. So this was, you know, we have to figure it out, but it wasn’t a big deal for us. And so once we said to the customers, don’t worry, this is completely doable.

Today, actually, yesterday, we

finished two projects, two workshops, ongoing workshops,

and we

have a feeling that the feedback we got was even better. And when we added in frontal, we don’t know why but face to face. I don’t know, it seems like it was even better, which is really cool. Via zoom.

Tim Kubiak 10:35
That’s very cool. And in a way I could see that because people are in their own environments, and maybe they’re more comfortable and receptive would be that’s the first thing that pops to mind for me. Right? Nope, nobody’s logging on. Are they taking notes? Should I be taking right kind of thing? Interesting.

Ilana 10:52
Yeah, there’s an intimacy when you see people’s faces very up close. Yeah. So that’s also a bit of intimacy that we need in our workshops.

Tim Kubiak 11:03
Oh, that’s interesting. So what’s an average sized workshop for you? Is it 20 people? Is it 2000 people, you know, what’s a workable group?

Ilana 11:17
So when we give lectures, we don’t have a limit, we can do it 200 300. And a lot of times we are asked to give a lecture. And sometimes it’s only for women, and sometimes it’s for managers who are men and women. And we talk about how they can influence gender diversity as their roles as leaders. But when it’s a workshop, yeah, you should, it’s around 20. And when was face to face, sometimes it could be even more up to 30. But usually, 20 is a really nice number. So we start we do that, even though sometimes not online, it’s also 12. And that’s fine as well, because it’s still there’s a lot of intimacy on zoom. So it’s nice.

Tim Kubiak 11:54
That is nice. So one of the things that grabbed me in our very first conversation, when we were deciding whether or not we were going to do this was you talked about part of your approach is, quote, The first moves in the game, do you mind sharing a little bit about what that is? And why people fail to recognize it?

Einat 12:12
Yeah, well, the organizational game is really our agenda. And we suggest looking at the workplace, like a board of ladders, and snakes, which everyone in the world like to play to win their children, you have the ladders, and you have the board and you have the snakes, and you have to reach the 100 square to be first. And you can walk slowly, one square at a time, or you can use a letter that will take you a few squirt forward. But you should be careful of the snakes that can pull you a few square down. So if I use this metaphor to the workplace, though, in the original game, flatters and snake, it depends mainly on luck. But if we change it a bit and edit, strategically thinking, we can really have a better understanding of the workplace. So you can start looking around, and to see where the best players and while the worst players, and what they’re doing to be the first. And when we talk about the workplace as a game, and that you have a winning point. A some of those hear us now have many thought. So some of you are probably saying to yourself, well, that’s obvious. The workplace is a game. And I’m like, I like playing it. Those are the one that says it is the best players. Some of you have never thought of this concept. And you don’t see the game that is going on. You’re oblivious to this game. Don’t you see the game, but decide not to play it and to win it your way. And some of you see the game but field, it’s plain it has too big of a price. It’s too hard for you to take and it takes too much of your energy, and you’re not good at it. And those someone are usually women. And so what they’re saying it is that you have to play the game. And I know for many women and also Atlanta when we talk about this game, they’re always saying, Well, I have so many things to do. I have my goals and my deadlines and my targets and my children at homes and I am in survival mode. I don’t have the power. Play the game. I don’t have the energy. And one of the main obstacle that we are facing and we call it the tiara syndrome. I don’t know if you heard about heard about a team, the tiara syndrome.

Tim Kubiak 14:57
Um Yeah, that word One assumes that it’s like princess.

Einat 15:03
Yes. Okay. Yes, it’s very.

Tim Kubiak 15:06
Yeah, I saw Disney characters when you said it. So I’ll let you explain to properly though. Well,

Einat 15:11
yeah, but it’s really this is very accurate. It’s like the wishful thinking that we are going to get the crown or the tiara. It’s like, when we see a Disney film, we see that there is a princess and there is a prince and he savor from the dragon and he put the tire on ahead. And many women, when they go to the workplace, they’re very focused, this is a tendency that women have women have more debt, we focus very much on the goal on the targets on the deadline, we are very focused. And when we are doing so, we are not seeing organization game. And also, we like saying, Okay, I will do a very good job, I will have a hard work and Excel, and someone will notice and give me the tiara, the tiara in the workplace could be a promotion, and could be a big project that I want. And it’s very, very challenging for me, and I want it and someone will notice, in the same sentence with we, we know that many women said that well, when they think rationally, they think well, even though I have the best work and I Excel, it doesn’t mean that someone will give me the tiara. But it’s like a mixed message. Because in the end, the symptoms of this trs syndrome is that you would pull your head down. And you hope someone will notice you deliver very great job. And it may be someone will say you are the next CEO or something. One of the things that we are talking when we we see that there is this Dr. syndrome is that you have to play it strategically. You have to be present and to be part of the game. And many women because of all those things that I said doesn’t do it. And you have to show people your value, your contribution contribution to the organization, many women said Well, I don’t want to go into office and say Me, me, me, I did this, I did that I want to that the job will speak for itself. And we see it’s not working. And Ilana will show us how to do it in a clever way.

Ilana 17:30
What a Einat was showing us is the fact that there is a game and she showed us one of the snakes. And what we usually like to talk about is the fact Yes, we have to be aware of the snake so we won’t, you know, so they won’t pull us down or hold us back. But then we also need ladders so that we can go up faster. And one of the ladders that we talked about. And it’s interesting because on the one hand, some women know about it, it’s just that they don’t use it. So we say they have to take care of their visibility, because the work won’t speak for itself don’t work is not a person that work is work, then we have the responsibility to talk about the work and have it been unknown shown. And the thing is, even sometimes when women know this, then I they’re reluctant to do it, or, or they don’t have the time because it’s not as important as doing the job itself. And we tell them that sometimes until a certain level in your career, you can somehow manage without it. And somehow you can still go up the ladder. But from certain stage, if you don’t do it, the other players will outplay you, because they will talk and they will tell about you know their different successes and success stories. And that’s what people want. They want to know why we have to let’s say, you know, hire Tim and not somebody else. And we want to also hear from Tim because also that means that you’re a great leader, because then you can also talk about, you know, your team success, not just yours and the project success. And we want that and a person that we want to promote, for example. And so we show women how to do it, because a lot of times they think that maybe it means and I always say like it as a joke, but maybe you think that that means that I have to write an email to all the employees saying Hi, my name is Ilana Stein, I’m the best diplomat you have ever seen in your life as regards Ilana. And that’s what they think it means self promotion. And so that’s why they don’t do it. Because Hey, that’s you know, that’s I won’t do that. So we teach them that they’re, you know, more sophisticated way to do it. It’s sometimes writing it’s something that’s actually just taking credit. A lot of times they don’t even do that they can work really hard on a project but that somebody else delivered or something because they think they would do a better job presenting it and then nobody knows that they did all this work. And a lot of the credit is due to them, even if somebody gives them the credits, not the same because that other person was in the front. So even that we encourage them to do that, or to find ways that they can put it in a conversation in their networking and work at it. Learn how to do it. And also just take projects, they have more visibility. If the company is I don’t know, there’s this new field that the CEO is really interested in, maybe I should find a way to also work on a project in that field, even though that is not my natural thing to do, I will think more strategically, and then I will have more visibility or work maybe with departments that don’t know me it. And these things can actually help me get known better for my own work. But it guy echoes much, much louder than it did before.

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Tim Kubiak 20:34
So it’s interesting conversation for me personally, because my daughter, youngest daughter is a grad student recently ran into this where the networking and the just expecting that doing the best work would get you recognized, right. And other people had had conversations and you know, behind her academically behind her and seniority and said, Hey, I want to do this. And they’re the ones that got the opportunity. Is that does it come? Often from confidence? Is it gender role? What creates that dynamic? Yeah,

Ilana 21:11
there are a lot of reasons. And it’s so interesting that you say about your daughter, because a lot of women feel it’s only about them, this, this is my character, I am modest, I was taught to be modest. But then when we talk to a lot of women, you see this again, and again, and they have different upbringings that can be from different parts of the world, you know, in different cultures. So So we think that it’s something that is rooted in us in different ways, not just culturally, or depends on where we live. And we think there are a few reasons for that. One of the reasons is that a lot of time we are a minority, in the in the workplace, or in sometimes also in university depends on which, you know, field we’re in. So especially in the stem.

Einat 21:55
Sorry, especially in STEM fields. Yes.

Ilana 21:58
Yeah. So sometimes it feels that, um, if I make a mistake, a lot of people will notice, because I’m not just, you know, Tim, or Jim or john, I am unique, more, and that will notice me, and this happens often to other minority groups, you know, then they remember, you know, that black guy, if he is different than the rest, or in our case, that woman. So sometimes we feel that it’s a bigger risk. And so we are reluctant to take it. other reason is, even subconsciously, parents don’t know this. But a lot of times, they don’t encourage girls to take as many risks as they encourage voice. So that is also so if we are not used to taking risks from a young age, it’s harder for us. And this feels like your risk, you know, to go out there and say I want this job, or I want to be in the front or I want to present I can also fail. So it’s a risk. And if you think about it, even boys, a lot of times they’re in competitive sports, whether it’s in Israel soccer that is very, you know, popular, whether it’s you know, baseball, or softball, whatever the kids are playing, if you look a lot of things that girls will play games that are different, there are more together and less of it competition. And so also they in a way, fail less because they’re not competing. I mean, this is a generalization. Of course, there are girls that love competitive sports, and they love being competition in a knot. And I love playing games when we were kids. And we like the competition, and we wanted to win. So it’s not everybody, but but if you do look at even research shows this, that that happens more to boys that they’re more competitive fields. And so they take bigger risks. And even if you look at it, even asking a girl out on a date, it’s something it’s something that more boys do than girls do. And that is also a risk and you can get a no and rejection. And women experienced this less so and they have more or less experience in it. So they’re more reluctant to do it or it’s harder for them to do it. So these are just a few reasons there are more. But these are ones that a lot of times caught our certain our attention because it’s something that happens all over the world and not just in a specific culture.

Einat 24:06
Yeah, and it’s also the way women look at the workplace. Well, we have different logic. And we really, really want that the workplace is to be that someone work hard, and someone will pay attention and we’ll get a promotion, we really want to see the world like that. So this is really another reason that women really want that the work will speak for the self. It’s a it’s a different logic of the workplace. And as we know, the workplace basic assumption are built by men. Because, you know, 5060 years ago ago, it was only a men world. So this is a different logic a different point of view of the workplace.

Tim Kubiak 24:52
you’d mentioned earlier that often when people were playing the game, they think the price is too big. Can you go into a little More detail on that one?

Einat 25:02
Well, for many women, um, to also be the best they can, and to deliver great work. And to you know, many women are also mothers and they have to deal with being a parent. So all this together, they think that they really want to invest in delivering very good work. And they feel sometimes that playing the game is very hard for them. And take may take too much energy. And also because women are as Lana said, a part of the main minority group, they have naturally they have more obstacles and more challenges. So this takes more energy for them. And one of them is what Ilana told before is to be a minority to be the only one in the room. And for this, I will show you an acceptor that many women feel that play the game is to be present, you know, to give yourself to to speak in meeting like illnesses before and if I’m in minority and snow and everyone look at me and see that I’m making a mistake. And I am also also another syndrome that kill their perfection syndrome and I want to be perfect. And I want to be like, you know, the deck the deck that is going on on the water is like slim sleaze very, you know, it’s going very smooth and doesn’t want everyone anyone to know that you are paddling Frank frantically to stay afloat. You know, we don’t want to see that. So this is all the energy that women invest in playing the game. And it’s more than other majority group.

Tim Kubiak 26:52
In one of the questions you asked openly on your website, which by the way, for those of you that want to learn more, go to move up dot today. And there’s some great primers there, if you will, and foundations of what these ladies teaching, and they have an impressive client list. One of the questions you asked directly there is why aren’t there enough women in leadership positions?

Ilana 27:16
Yeah, and it’s a lot of times a question that we ask in workshops, also when we do it to men, men and women managers and leaders. And also we asked women, it’s interesting, because a lot of times the answers are different. So we think that one of the main reasons, is the fact that they don’t play the game as much as the men, there are a few reasons that’s one of them. The other main reason is that a lot of times there are different things that leaders can do, and that they’re not aware of, and that if they would do that then would have more diversity and inclusion. And they don’t do it because they you know, don’t care. A lot of times, they just don’t know about what kind of difference they can make if they will be more aware of the differences between men and women in the workplace. And if they would be more aware, then they will be able to promote more women, like you not just said, sometimes it’s because we think differently. For example, we had this in one of our workshops, we had men and women in the same rank. It was I think I can’t even say it was in the army. Okay, so they weren’t the same rank, they were leaders. And we started the discussion about what the Ignite said about the tiara syndrome. And it was interesting, because the men said, What do you mean, the women expect to be promoted on merit and on hard work? But that doesn’t work that way. They should come to me and tell me I want the promotion. I want the project I want the client. I mean, why would they think that I need to get this? And then the woman said, What do you mean? I mean, if she did a great work us, her manager should notice that and you shouldn’t give her the promotion, you should give her the client, you should get rid of project. What do you mean. And once we have an open discussion about how we see these things differently, then this guy will know that, for example, the woman that works for him, it’s not to ask for the promotion, because she’s not ready, or she doesn’t think she’s good enough. She didn’t ask for it because she thinks it’s his job to realize that she’s good enough for the next level. And once and if he knows that, then he can start you know, noticing the woman art can put like different things in for example, he can tell all his employees, men and women, that he expects them to tell him their ambitions for the next two years. Once he says that, then the women will probably do it and they will say, you know, I see myself as x y Zed, and then this will level out the playing field. But if he doesn’t know about this difference, then he wouldn’t he wouldn’t do this because he thinks that other people are like him and so he would ask for the and other things that he wants. So probably all of his employees will do the same. So that’s one of the reasons that we don’t have enough awareness. And then leaders don’t have enough tools,

so that they can level out the playing field. And once we do that, given the awareness and tools, then we can see more women who are in higher levels. And then the other side of it, the flip side of it is the responsibility of women themselves. That if that they have to learn how to play the game. And then once they do that, then they can move up the ladder faster, just like I saw the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, that once I saw, now women are playing the game much better than they used to. And so now they’re getting more promoted. But then in the past, they didn’t. And so they sort of expected, as we said, I work hard, I’m good, I will be promoted, and they were not playing the game. And so they will be promoted much slower than the men.

Tim Kubiak 30:52
Do you see? Because more women are starting companies? And are innovators in that sense. Do you see maybe in time, that the entire I’ll say workforce, but the entire company culture that we’ve become accustomed to, will shift to be a balance somewhere between what we see today, and maybe what’s in the future, where the game will be different, frankly, maybe they change the rules completely.

Ilana 31:16
And we think that a you need awareness also with women, because when we give these lectures to men and women who are leaders, a lot of times the women are not aware, either, and so they would also almost fall into the same, you know, holds the or is that the men would. And so I’ll give you a funny example. In one of the workshops, we show a movie. And in that movie, there’s two guys in an airplane, which nowadays sounds like it’s historic, right? People are not flying anymore. Show that it’s almost sadistic to actually show this film, once you’re in the workshop, because I think most men are like, Oh, my God, I miss flying. I wish I could go on vacation. But anyway, so we saw this film and the film, the two guys and one of the guys is worried because he hears that the pilot is a woman. And she’s telling them, I’m the your I’m going to be your pilot. And then she says, my co pilot is and it turns out, it’s another woman. So this guy’s really worried was I Oh, my God, I’m up in the air. And there’s two women were supposedly pilots putting up with their women. And so we talked through this about the biases that we have. And once we did that, in one of the workshops, a woman told us that she heard from a woman who is a pilot, who was a pilot in the Israeli Defense Force and Army, the ones she went on a plane, and she heard that the woman there was a pilot, and she panicked for a second. And then she said to herself, how can I panic? I, I, you know, I am proud of myself. And I do that in college in combat planes, how can I be worried on a commercial flight, right? So we all have these biases. And if we’re not aware of them, then you know, these women leaders can also be unaware of the biases that they have also towards women. And also not we know not knowing the differences between minimum so we think it can be because some of them might be aware, because they’ve gone through things and they’ve learned and they and they saw, but we want the other ones to be aware as well. So then we can surely see a difference. But if not, then it’s gonna stay question mark for can see a difference or not.

Tim Kubiak 33:28
That’s interesting. And I think America is in a unique inflection point, because when I started my career, there weren’t many women in the executive ranks at all. And now in my age group, most of my contemporaries that I came up with are at similar level to me, right. And it’s been interesting to see inside of technology, that happens, but there’s still if you go, go and meet with, you know, a security company, you’ll still see that while there are women represented in sales, marketing, PR, maybe even, you know, other forward facing things, largely, the engineering fields are still very male dominated. Yeah, right. And especially at the senior levels inside that is a nuance. So that’s one area. I haven’t seen shift. Know yet, but it has been interesting, my own career to see it change. You know, I had the unique situation. And that was through a mutual friend that introduced us all right, that I actually had a Salesforce that only had, you know, 20% men in a technology field, and the rest of it was women. And my favorite story to tell is, we’d hired an outside HR consulting firm to come in and look at pay gap. And I literally just chuckled, and she’s like, no, this is very serious. You have to take the seriousness that I know what my payroll is. And she’s like, Okay, I’m like, Yeah, my men are the two lowest paid people. My women are the top earners in the company. Matter of fact, there’s not a man within $100,000 a year of the women. So you do the studies audit me anytime you want. I’m very proud of what they have here. And I didn’t build that the owner prior to me built that, but it was an amazing thing to see and be able to say.

Ilana 35:14
Yes, for you.

Einat 35:17
This is inclusive management.

Tim Kubiak 35:19
You know what? James gets all the credit, I inherited it. I did not build it. But we kept it that way. That’s for sure.

Einat 35:27
Sometimes, it’s very difficult. It is to keep it this way.

Tim Kubiak 35:32
He had a beautiful policy. His policy was I don’t care who you are what you say, we can argue at the end of the day, I’m the owner, and we’ll go. But if you can show me how to make more money. You know, there is no politics, there’s only profit. Wow. And he built a brilliant company and ran it on a shoestring and made a fortune. So he did it. Right. Yeah. Also, his wife was 50%. Owner. So it started that way. Yeah.

Einat 35:58
Because at the end, the end game is to have a balance. We really, it’s not something that you know, more men or more women, we really want everyone to be diverse. And this is really the way to, you know, to 16 and also to succeed in business. And you show it and in your example.

Tim Kubiak 36:17
Yeah. And I and that’s actually literally my next question is, you know, can you share a little bit based on your teaching and your research how diversity and equality in an organization provides better business outcomes?

Ilana 36:31
Yeah, it’s funny, because now it’s winter. But when you think about in the summer, we all use this thing called an air conditioner, air conditioning, right. And so it’s good to talk. So if the people who built it would have been more diverse, and they’re thinking, then women wouldn’t freeze all the time, because what happens was that there was a, you know, that when they built it, what they took into account when they were doing the math of what this how this should work, is what the average 40 year old man who weighs 70 kilograms, I don’t know how to visit a pound, but like, what they thought was an average man, they put the way his body works into the calculations, they didn’t do an average of a woman’s body and a man’s body and the way we both react to heat into cold into cold weather. And so that’s why it’s designed in such a way that in most places, the women usually have, you know, a sweater or they’re asking, please, you know, we need the temperature to please be higher. And it’s, you know, it’s not just because this is how God created it, right? Because God didn’t create air conditioning, its people. And so these people, I mean, they were mean, or they weren’t even chauvinistic, they just didn’t take into account that we don’t have the same body. And because we don’t have the same body, we react differently to different things. And this is also shown when they didn’t do research on medicine on women, because you know, women have, you know, other, it just was harder for them to conduct these studies with them, because they have pregnancies and they have periods. And so it was harder. And so it took a long time until they realize that there are different side effects. And there are different ways that the women react to the same medicine, as men, even though this can be medicine that has to do you know, with the heart and not with anything that is only unique to the feminine body. And so if there would have been more diverse thinking, then these products, whether it’s the air conditioning, whether it’s medicine, what there’s even seatbelts in the car, were tested on dummies that have the body like a man and not like a woman. And so the results are, again, more accurate towards men than towards women. So if there would be a more diverse thinking, then these products would have been better for half of it as you know, population with our women, and not just for the other half. So this is, first of all, how this could influence the product. And hence, naturally, you know, the outcome, the business outcome and your endo and how much money the company makes. So that’s one thing. And then the other thing is that there were research that were done. One of them was in mid London Business School, they wanted to see how teams perform, whether it’s teams and they took different teams, and one of the teams was the people that were considered the most talented people in a company. And then they took another team, which was diverse, it just had the same number of men and women, but they weren’t considered, you know, the stars, the best talent in the company, they were considered good. And then they gave them different admissions. And the idea was to see you know, what kind of things they can invent and how innovative they can be. And the group that was more diverse got better results, then these stars and that’s one of the things that shows that even if you have really, really excellent people, if you have a diverse group brings you better results, because the brainstorming is from different aspects and different ways of looking at things. And then you would have, you know, if you are more innovative and if you, you know, if the ideas that you bring are more diverse because the people are more diverse, then you also have better business results. So, these are things that slightly companies are starting to realize, from our experience, not enough companies, and but the ones who are realizing are making difference. And they are making sure, and we heard it from one company here in Israel, that a lot of times, even the men in that company, say, Oh, my team is not diverse enough, I want another woman there, because I know we’ll get better results, which for us was astounding. We only heard it from now from one company, that the what was fascinating that it wasn’t something that the CEO said it was something that people and you know, in different levels started to realize themselves that they will be get better results as leaders, if their teams are more diverse. So they want this. And not just because it’s a politically correct thing to do.

Tim Kubiak 41:08
That’s an amazing thing to have come out of right? In because often, initiatives like this are seen as humans resources or executive man’s rights and not genuine. That’s a compliment to your work.

Einat 41:24
Thank you,

thank you. But this is

Ilana 41:26
we have to say this was a preliminary interview that we did before going there to realize how things weren’t that’s what we’re so surprised and so happy that they were doing things correctly for I guess for a few years now, that the culture there is already you know, this is what we aspire to bring to other companies as well, that they will because in other companies, like you said, sometimes they know how to quote the HR and say the right things, but they don’t necessarily want to do it, or they don’t really see the why they should do it. Except that HR says that this is the thing they should do. So yes, take credit. But um, this was beforehand, we’ll take credit and other companies when

Einat 42:05
and also when it when it’s going top down. And not always, when even when the management and HR says, Well, we have to do it. They are not always saying well, we have to do it because it’s good for the business. Though. There are no there are sometimes says you have we have to do it because for morals and reason for no social reason. Because it’s a it’s quality. And this is really, it’s it’s really important. But what we want that even if it’s coming from top down or down app, we want to hear that it’s not just morally, morally in social way. A reasons is that it’s really a business reason it’s good for the business. And in the end result, it’s a better result. And we think that when more companies will realize it, there will be the will be the change that you were talking about.

Tim Kubiak 43:03
So one of the things in that change. And I’ll use an example from my background again, right. And I had a situation, it was a good one, by the way, not a bad one, where I watched a woman who ran Canada become essentially eventually the VP of the entire North American business than the executive vice president of that business. And she go on to be CEOs and actually talking during a couple of weeks. She’ll be on the show in January. Now she’s working with founders, on building their businesses. And one of the things I watched her during her name’s LYNN MURPHY. And she was absolutely brilliant as she created as part of that initiative inside the company. That was a women’s only group that met twice a month to talk about the challenges. They had to look for ways to idea and ideas to innovate. Is that something that you see and sees beneficial by creating a place? And her Foundation, if I recall correctly was she had read studies where when the genders were separated in primary school that the girls outperform when they were in with the boys and more so as they went towards adolescence in single sex classes? Have you seen anything like that work? Is that a good approach? is it just an approach,

Ilana 44:21
we recommend this approach and with companies that we work with we we also sometimes help them form these forums, they have different names and a lot of times catchy, really cool names. And the thing is that, first of all, these women may be just like your daughter, if your daughter was in such a form, she would understand that this was not like her personality that she would rather not be in the spotlight, she would understand that this is something that happens to a lot of her female peers. And then maybe she’ll have more of initiative to try to change it because if it’s your character and your personality, then it says hey, you know, I’m not going to change my heart personally. LD, this is who I am. But once you understand that this is not exactly who you are, because if it happens to, you know a lot of people in my gender, then it’s not my personality, it’s a pattern. And then if it’s a pattern, I can try to change it. And so that that discussion helps them in that aspect. And then there are also aspects where they try to help each other. And we were just yesterday, we heard a woman in the workshop that we gave, and she was from HR. And she said, I want to have your woman’s group I want us to meet. And she said, I noticed that guys a lot, they’ve had their boys club, and she said it not in a bad way. She said, you know, they have this thing, where they root for each other, and they help each other climb up the ladder. And they think that it’s it’s part of work, and they think it’s legitimate, which it is. But a lot of times women don’t have that sometimes they don’t feel as legitimate, they feel like I shouldn’t be self interest. It’s, it’s, you know, I should have friendships, and this, you know, then we have friendships, and we like each other, and we help each other but we shouldn’t be strategic about it. Because that is already, like too much of an interest driven, you know, relationship, and I don’t want an interest driven relationship, I want a real relationship. And so if you are in this kind of group together, where we say that we’re going to vouch for each other, and if I hear of, you know, the client that you should be interested in, I will let you know. And if you have a job opening that I can go apply to you let me know, and this is part of what we do in this group, then we have a better chance of, you know, helping lift each other up. And then this women, women can come overcome this notion that they have that you know, this is not an ethical, which it’s not true, but sometimes that’s how they feel. And so these are a few of the aspects. And they also sometimes have, you know, lectures like us come and give them different tools that again, sometimes they have different tools than what the men need. Because one of the examples that a lot of times, you know, we give an other give that in workshops in the workplace, a lot of times they give an emphasis on teamwork, and how we should work as a team. And there’s no I in team. Not in Tim and Tim, there is an i within team, there isn’t and I, I’m so so women don’t need that as much. Because a lot of times they say less I and they give more credit to their teams. And so if you put all the focus on that, then the woman doesn’t get much out of that workshop. But if you would give her a workshop that says yes, you should say I every once in a while. And yes, you should see credit. And yes, you should take care of your visibility, which men less need to hear that because that comes more naturally. Again, as you know, we’re talking in generalizations. It’s not all the men on all the women. But basically, research shows that this is more typical of men. And being you know, kid taking care of the team is more typical of the women. So they need different workshops. And once you give the women these workshops that they need more, they can also, you know, be able to reach their potential, I mean, going up the ladder, much better than if they don’t get that. So that’s why we definitely look through the forums are very helpful. And we we believe that people are listening to us now they can start with even a small form, it can be 1020, women, it can be even five. So it could be some women could also go and meet even at you know a home in the living room and just start having these conversations. By the way, we recommend the website called lean in that probably a lot of people heard of, but what maybe they don’t know that they really have any recommendations on how to start a circle like this, and how to start a forum and what kind of discussions they can have there. And then they can start from that and move up and see what else they can do. But we definitely recommend it. And you know, and your friend sounds like she knows what she’s doing.

Tim Kubiak 49:02
Yeah, looks very sharp,

Einat 49:04
we move up, we believe in a well rounded solution. So one of the solution is to initiate those women forms. It’s very important. But you you don’t you can’t just focused on one segment of the organization. In order to achieve change, you have to address leaders, you have to address the HR, you have to address the executive and the owners and the employees and then women and men in also the women forum. In that way. When you raise awareness and teach tools for inclusive management, this is all together we will see the difference. So it’s not just the women forum, it’s all together.

Tim Kubiak 49:52
We’re going to kind of start to wrap things up here a little bit. If I can just go on back to your own business journeys. What Three of the biggest challenges you’ve had to face in building your company.

Ilana 50:04
I think a lot of companies have this, but at least we did. First of all is being new if you’re talking about the playing field being new on the playing field, and then the fact that how do you convince somebody to take a risk on you? You didn’t, we didn’t have a lecture that was, you know, we didn’t want to start our first lecture, our first workshop, and people wanted to, you know, to hear recommendations, and we still don’t have any. And, and we knew that, you know, what we have is good. But nobody else can vouch for that. So how do you write How do you convince them to say, Okay, I will take a risk on you. And we were lucky to find this amazing woman in one of Israel’s actually big companies. And she was leader hidden herself in that company, she’s very high rank there. And she cares a lot about the women, the company, because she did her own research in the company. And she found things that astounded her regarding women and women. And then she really wanted to make a difference. And she took a risk on us, she had a meeting with us, she had meetings, also with other companies. And she thought that we can deliver. And even though we still didn’t have anybody who would vouch for us, and I think that’s one of the reasons that she’s successful, because she takes risks. And this was just one of them. She took many other risks in her in her work. And till this very day, she, you know, we still work with her. And she still invites us to do workshops and lectures in that company, and she recommends us to others. So I think that’s really hard at the beginning, like to just be able to start and have somebody take a risk on you. The other challenge we had was, we were both working in different workplaces, I was working in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs as a nun was working as a consultant in a company. And she was also upset, she was managing the consultant there. And so should we just say goodbye to our day job, and just go all in? Or should we do it gradually. And they’re, you know, ups and downs to each of these things, right. So if you go all in, then maybe you have more time, and then maybe the business will grow faster. But then maybe there’s a lot of pressure also on the business to succeed quickly, because this is, you know, this is our main livelihood, and has to succeed now, or should be worked really hard in both jobs. And, you know, the best paying job and this business that we’re building. And so it was a dilemma. And we and we decided to put less pressure. And I mean, it was more pressure on our time to do both jobs. But it was less, you know, pressure on the business to have to succeed now. So we could take our time, and you know, build enough customers and build enough reputation. So that now you know, now we’re both doing this 100% because now the business is mature enough to walk on its own. And so we can do this. So these were two, two big challenges. And the third challenge we found is that companies did not realize that there’s a problem. And a lot of times when you want to sell something, right, you’re giving a solution. But what if people don’t think there’s a problem, then they don’t need your solution. And we knew there’s a problem, right? We knew that if you look at the numbers, there are not enough women. And we knew that if you have more women, you’d get better business results. But it was very hard to convince us at the time. There’s less Reacher’s research regarding the business results. So that was harder, and we couldn’t conduct our own research. We were you know, we needed a company that does that, like McKinsey, which did and then now there are results. And so once we did that, so we had to convince them that they have a problem. And they a lot of times they didn’t want to hear that. And that we have the solution that was already easier once they were willing to realize that there is a problem. But that was a big challenge. Sometimes it still is, but it is a little bit easier now because there is more research from the world to support what we’re saying. So and there’s more conversation about as well, but that I guess we are a bit of a pioneers, at least in Israel. So you know how it is to be a pioneer in business. There’s advantages and disadvantages.

Tim Kubiak 54:19
It sounds like you found the nice transitional in America that the modern term is that’s a side hustle that took off.

Unknown Speaker 54:29
Yeah, definitely.

Ilana 54:30
And a passion

Tim Kubiak 54:33
and I think that’s what drives people right that’s what creates businesses is the passion for what you’re doing. Yeah,

Ilana 54:40
we will we literally get a high once a workshop or lecture is over. It’s you know, it’s a natural legal Hi,


because it’s, you know, when we hear women and say that this impacted them, and this is what we want, then them you know, We’re really, really happy about it. And it makes us really, really happy that we decided to go with, you know, with our passion and, and, you know, build this business.

Einat 55:09
Yeah, in the last workshop that we just wrapped a few days ago, some of the participants said that she’s the one that is very unique to us that you see that we are on a mission. It’s not just work. It’s not just passion, it’s a mission. And, yes, it is. But it’s not a, you know, crusade or something. Yeah, but it’s a mission.

Tim Kubiak 55:36
That’s a good thing. That’s a powerful thing. Yeah, it is. That sense of purpose and understanding what the need is, and what the customers need is, to your point on taking chances, is so important in any business.

Einat 55:53

Tim Kubiak 55:55
So if a young woman’s listening to this new in the workforce, still in university has an interview yet, someone who’s thinking of a career change, any advice you’d give them,

Ilana 56:05
it’s, it’s a good way for us to wrap it up. And we’ll give you a story about a woman that told us how she did it, how she employment then she was in the Oh, she was a lawyer, she was new, she just finished, you know, university, she, two years or so as a lawyer, and she heard her lecture. And we met her a couple of years after that, and what she did. And what we recommend to her to do is, first of all, we should look at the workplace as a game. And then she said, she started to look at the players. And she found some guy, us that she thought was a good player player, and, you know, in our terms mean, the person who can play the game very well. And she said, Okay, I’m gonna ask him, first of all, to be my mentor. And second of all, I’m going to look at what he did in the past, I would look at him critically and say, why did why is he going to all these lunches, you know, like, doesn’t he have like, a real job to do, I mean, this distance, pampering, you know, like, just enjoys, you know, using the credit card of a company if you have nice meals with his friends. So I’m going to take off, you know, that criticism, and I’m going to use what we not, and I say, she put our glasses on, and looked at the workplace through our glasses. And then she started to see things differently. She saw that, okay, so in fact, he went on these last lectures, and nothing happened. Yes, it was a nice lunch, they just had a nice conversation. But a lot of times, things would come up, you know, that once you’d say, you know, what, actually my friend, he’s looking to buy something, and he needs a lawyer who deals with real estate. I didn’t think about that before. But you know what, I’m going to introduce you guys, okay, he didn’t know that was going to happen. And so she started to see the different things that he does. And she started taking notes, and she started to do them. And then she started to see results. And one of the things she also did, we talked about the terrorist syndrome, she saw how he says what he wants, you know, I want that big client, I think I deserve it. I think I’ve proven myself in the past few weeks. So now I should take that, you know, and she just, she understood what she has to say, for example, that she wants to be a partner, like, not a junior partner, fast. And she would have never said that before. But she said, Now I realized that she told him, I want you as my mentor to help me achieve that. And then she also went and said it to other people and made it known that she wants to be on the fast track. And she was and she was one of the first Junior partners from her class in that place that she you know, she got this position. So learn how to play the game, look at other players in a way that is not critical. And you don’t have to adapt everything that they do, maybe some things they do you don’t like, but see what you can adapt, and how, and then just, you know, implement it, even though it’s scary, even though it means taking risks, even though means you might even fail, God forbid, but if you do, then what does it mean? I mean, unless you’re a doctor and you kill patients, you know, other risks are not if you look at them seriously, it’s it just maybe something’s about losing face. Usually not more than that, that, as we said, Unless you’re killing a person, but we all most of us don’t, you know, since maybe losing phase, maybe your egos a bit in our hurt,

Einat 59:21
but it’s okay, you can deal

Ilana 59:22
with it. So we say look at the game, see what you can do. Take risks and say what you want and they’ll and though and then go and get it. Basically for summing up that woman’s story in our recommendation.

Tim Kubiak 59:38
That is a great way to end. Ladies, thank you so much for the time, you know, obviously we’ll have the website in the show notes for anybody who’s listening while the full transcription and anyone who knows me that wants introductions, I’m happy to make them and work across the

Einat 59:54
aisle so at Facebook.

Tim Kubiak 59:57
So where can they find you on Facebook? What’s the Group move up. So just if I just look move up on Facebook,

Einat 1:00:05
okay, also I need to stick around. We are really an all social media.

Ilana 1:00:15
So unless we don’t know how Google Translate, sorry, but they’re quite good.

Einat 1:00:22
They’re quite okay. That’s okay.

Tim Kubiak 1:00:25
I was gonna say that there was a few verbs got moved around when I translated your website a little bit, but Google did a good job before English.

Einat 1:00:34
I know.

Ilana 1:00:36
They can look us

up and Instagram, Facebook.

Einat 1:00:40
How many pictures there are picture. There are many things in English. In the Instagram. We have many quotes in English though. Okay. Okay,

Tim Kubiak 1:00:49
great. I will make sure we link to that as well.

Einat 1:00:51
Yeah, thank you.

Tim Kubiak 1:00:56
Thanks again, everybody for listening today. If you haven’t already done so please subscribe. leave us a review on Apple podcasts and check out our YouTube channel. You can find ynap and olana at move up dot today. And if you need a personal introduction, just reach out to me on email or LinkedIn or any social media and I’ll get you guys connected. Thanks again for the time

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